Does anyone have any experience with the new electric digital dermaneedling device called the Derminator from owndoc.com?

Dear jet302:

Thanks for posting - This is very interesting technology.

We too would like to know if any individuals (or dermatologists, estheticians, or other professionals) have any experience or feedback on the use of digital dermaneedling.

Best Wishes,
-Skin Biology

I am using the Derminator, I did my second session last night with it. It's a quality built, well thought out piece of equipment. I find it to be less traumatic letting a machine do the work of pushing the needles into my face, and as a result I needle more thoroughly. I am committed to scar reduction and this will be my tool of choice for needling, I like it. Still, it's a painful process & there is recovery time after use, no getting out of that.

Dear RLC:

Thanks for posting your experience thus far - Please keep in touch!

Just recently we heard from another client who also raved about the Derminator. He said he was specifically concerned about avoiding "microtearing" and this product seems to highlight that aspect.

Best Wishes,
-Skin Biology

I'm probably not the normal user that's on this forum, I'm a farmer first and finance professional second. When it comes to equipment I don't take anyone's word for how something works. I took this device apart and studied it after I received it as I was concerned about it being untested...I found very sound engineering, then I wore out a needle attachment using it on parts of my body that there was nothing wrong with and wasn't showing trying to find something wrong with the theory and practical use of this device, looking for tearing and track marks. With that said, I will NEVER use a hand roller ever again, this device does a significantly better job.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RLC,

RLC I don't understand your second to the last sentence where you were trying the derminator on parts of your body that did not need it etc. what r u trying to convey?

Patrice,

In my mind the machine was untested by the masses, I bought one of the first machines released to the public. When I said I was trying the Derminator on parts of my body other than my face, I was testing how my skin would react to the machine on skin that wasn't visible in case it caused damage. It has different speeds and you can change depth on the fly...I was looking for tearing and track marks at different speeds and depths. I was trying to convey I was very cautious and did a lot of testing on how the machine worked and how the skin would respond before I used it on my face.

quote:

Originally posted by RLC:
Patrice,

In my mind the machine was untested by the masses, I bought one of the first machines released to the public. When I said I was trying the Derminator on parts of my body other than my face, I was testing how my skin would react to the machine on skin that wasn't visible in case it caused damage. It has different speeds and you can change depth on the fly...I was looking for tearing and track marks at different speeds and depths. I was trying to convey I was very cautious and did a lot of testing on how the machine worked and how the skin would respond before I used it on my face.

Ok got it. Thanks for the clarification and yr thorough checking.

quote:

Originally posted by RLC:
I'm probably not the normal user that's on this forum, I'm a farmer first and finance professional second. When it comes to equipment I don't take anyone's word for how something works. I took this device apart and studied it after I received it as I was concerned about it being untested...I found very sound engineering, then I wore out a needle attachment using it on parts of my body that there was noting wrong with and wasn't showing trying to find something wrong with the theory and practical use of this device, looking for tearing and track marks. With that said, I will NEVER use a hand roller ever again, this device does a significantly better job.

Dear RLC:

Yes. VERY thorough! Excellent review - Interesting that the other client said the same thing over the phone: that he would never go back to a hand roller device again.

BTW, are you using it with any copper peptide products? Were you able to do any testing with topicals?

Best Wishes,
-Skin Biology

I am using peptides, Super Cop/Super Cop 2x...and not sparingly!

After a year, I think I have figured out what I'm doing. I went back and started from the beginning and read all the articles Doc has posted and now I have the tools to do things correctly. I'm following the pyramid of (1) needling (controlled wounds, I needle deep 1.75MM on meaty parts of my mug and less deeply on areas with less flesh...yes it hurts), (2) encouraging collagen growth with peptides, homemade solutions, supplements and foods that promote collagen, (3) exfoliation & facial exercises. To this point I estimate I have seen 25-30% improvement on one side of my face and 15-20% improvement on the other...and I had not a clue what I was doing, I'm expecting great results in the coming year.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RLC,

Dear RLC:

We wish you the best - Sounds like you've discovered a nice regimen that is generating results for you!

Best Wishes,
-Skin Biology

RLC,

After needling, what do you use to clean the Derminator cartridge with? Also, do you use any numbing cream prior to needling?

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and Happy New Year everyone!

Same to you and to the Skin biology team as well as the community that has built up around them!

jet302...I use a toothbrush, antibacterial soap and rinse with hydrogen peroxide to clean the needle cartridge...then dry with a hairdryer.

I only use a needle cartridge twice, once in the main needling session every five weeks (1.75MM-2MM) and then once in between the big sessions (.25MM-.5MM) to work in some super cop 2. I always use a new cartridge for a main needling session, they are $5 and I want super sharp needles, it hurts less and penetrates easier/deeper. I don't use numbing cream...I needle with a heavy duty dose of super cop 2 on my face so the needles will push it in deep, yes it hurts, but it doesn't last long and is worth it. It's not fun, but it's working. I will say this again, the Derminator is much easier psychologically because I'm not pushing the needles in as I was with a hand roller, the hand held part of the Derminator is doing it...I needle more thoroughly/longer with the Derminator for sure.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RLC,

RLC,
Thanks for your informative reply!

jet302, I had seen that you're also located in western Canada

I'm a 50 year old male having suffered a very long duration of poor health in my younger years due to the OUTRIGHT NEGLECT of numerous doctors and their inability to diagnose a very long standing B 12 deficiency that had nearly taken me to the grave. I had also required 20 years of cortisol replacement therapy because my adrenal glands had been damaged by the B 12 deficiency. To make a very long story short, all this has been very tough on my body and had left the skin under my eyes and on the back of my hands looking paper thin ... I really wanted to find effective treatment(s) to improve this, but I cannot afford the huge cost of repeated professional treatments.

Lots of internet research and watching youtube videos and I came across skin needling and later the Vaughter Wellness Derminator machine. The Vaughter site goes into an enormous amount of detail on every matter possible and their prices are very reasonable ... but, I had hesitated to order from an overseas company, though these guys are supposedly the biggest such company in the world. Well, I took the leap and turns out the only challenging part was having to set up a PayPal account and in only nine days the well packaged parcel had arrived.

Okay, the Derminator is apparently a well put together smart little machine and the working end is compact and sturdily built. Needles don't bother me, though I was hesitant to put the working head to my skin, especially because I had not purchased any numbing cream. I have now used the Derminator on my entire face, upper chest and the back of my hands and the pain level is quite easily tolerated, especially if one follows the guidelines and indepth information on the Vaughter website.

After only three days of using copper peptide serum, I was super surprised to already notice an improvement in the collagen formation and lessened crepiness under my eyes (I hadn't yet needled that sensitive region.) Really should have taken before photos, cause in just ten days I'm seeing surprisingly good results! Awesome that one can do this skin improvement work at home and without the need to dish out the really big bucks at a clinic.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Terry,

Welcome to our forum Terry,

I am happy you are finally getting help with your long standing health issue.

Many of our clients use derma rolling, needling and of course the various derma machines on the market. I too have seen a huge improvement in my skin using such methods.

Many people wonder what the difference is between the original or 1st generation copper peptides and the 2nd generation copper peptides. Here is a simple explanation:

What Is the Difference Between GHK (1st Generation Products) and 2nd Generation Products?

Brief Summary:

“First Generation Products” are based on Dr. Pickart's original discovery of GHK-Cu which stands for glycyl-histidyl-lysine copper (II). GHK has been shown to produce a number of amazing benefits on the skin. However, it is fragile and breaks down very easily. So Dr. Pickart found that combining small copper and soy-based peptides (“Second Generation Products”) could produce the same effect and also be a viable product for fading the appearance of blemishes and the more “difficult to affect” cosmetic signs of aging.

Why the Price Difference: The answer has to do with the fact that the raw material for manufacturing GHK-Copper is quite expensive. GHK-Cu has had the bulk of cosmetic and general studies performed on it. Due to its very positive findings and years in existence, the price of the raw product reflects the decades of work that have gone into developing this cosmetic ingredient.

Which “Generation” is Stronger/Better?

"Stronger" might not be the best description - "Better suited for certain skin rejuvenation tasks" might be a more appropriate phrase. Although GHK has a number of properties that it seems science is continuing to appreciate, GHK is very fragile. Second Generation Copper-Peptides are more breakdown resistant and adhere better to the skin. So the type of rejuvenation needed and the client's skin type and goals will dictate which is better for that particular individual. Remember, "stronger" doesn't necessarily mean better / Some client's skin may actually do better using the milder 1st generation products in certain areas or if they are new to copper-peptides.

Long Explanation:

“The first generation products, built around GHK-Cu, have performed well for cosmetic skin rejuvenation. But they were not a significant commercial success and have not ignited strong customer demand. Thus, it was necessary to use the insights from GHK-Cu to develop an improved type, along with improved methods of administration (such as concomitant treatments with hydroxy acids, retinoic acid, natural skin oils, and various abrasive procedures) to develop commercially successful products.
GHK-Cu does work on skin to reduce the appearance of wrinkles, fine lines, and photodamage while improving skin glow.
Dr. Pickart wrote patent applications on these cosmetic actions of GHK-Cu in 1989 but these discoveries gathered dust for a decade. (Pickart L, US patents 5,135,913 Skin treatment compositions comprises GHL-Cu / 5,348,943 Cosmetic and skin treatment compositions)

Finally, between 1998 and 2002, more extensive human observations from around the world poured in solidifying Dr. Pickart's work.
The problem was that GHK-Cu is fragile and breaks down in a short time. It also is unstable when used with hydroxy acids. So in 1995, Dr. Pickart started searching for a more stable form of SRCPs. Since GHK-Cu has a very strong affinity to bind copper (II) ions, it occurred to Dr. Pickart that other small peptides might do the same if pre-loaded with copper ions.

Therefore, in 1994 Skin Biology was started to develop improved second-generation skin rejuvenating copper peptides (SRCPs) with enhanced potency, breakdown resistance, and high adherence to skin.
To accomplish this goal, Dr. Pickart isolated peptide fragments from soy protein digests that possessed the desired qualities when chelated to copper (II). Such peptides have a long history of safe use in cosmetic products.

Howard Maibach of the University of California San Francisco and colleagues also tested the second-generation copper peptides in four small placebo-controlled studies. They found that creams made from the new copper complexes were safe and produced significant results. (Zhai H, Poblete N, Maibach HJ / Inter J Dermatol 1998, 37:386-389; Zhai H, Leow YH, Maibach HR / Clin Exp Derm 1998, 23:11-13; Zhai H, Leow YH, Maibach HR / Skin Res Tech 1998, 4:24-27; Zhai H, Chang YC, Singh M, Maibach / 1999, 40:205-208).

Excitingly, the breakdown-resistant SRCPs can be used with hydroxy acids and retinoic acid to enhance skin rejuvenation and the fading of blemishes. We will continue to develop and improve this 2nd generation approach to SRCPs to eventually produce commercially viable products.”

The patent on the GHK Copper of the glycyl-histidyl-lysine copper (II) has expired long ago. That is why Dr. Pickart sells both the 1st and 2nd generation copper peptides. His credentials are impeccable. Being the discoverer he understands it and is very happy to see that it's getting the attention it is worldwide for all of it's many benefits for the skin and body. I use Dr. Pickart's Super GHK Cream as maintenance on my skin every day and continue to be amazed that it improves my skin even though I am well into my 50's.

Best wishes on your recovery. You are now on the path of feeling better.

Kindest Regards,
~TheSkin Bio Team

Tis the season...I have taken the last two summers off doing my routine, since Fall is here it's back to work. I'm not looking forward to it, the pain of needling is intense as I go deep (1.75-2MM), slapping on Super Cop 2 and Lacsal on a regular basis, and chemical peeling every other week, I exfoliate when my skin allows it which is frequently too...not fun, but I have seen results. I have reduced my scaring aprox 50+% over the last 24 months and as a bonus I have very minimal wrinkling which is rare for a 55 year old fit guy that loves the sun and I don't deny myself, I never will, what I love to do is outside in the sun.

I will do 7 needling sessions over the next 8 months with the Derminator, buy some more CP's from Doc, order some fresh chemical peel and suck it up and do it...I'm hoping for another 25% improvement over the next year...putting one foot in front of the other I plan on winning this battle :-)...

Good Luck to all in your quest.

Dear RLC:

What a wonderful testimonial on the power of consistency, an effective skin needling (Derminator) routine, and copper peptides to help reduce the look of your blemishes more than 50% !

Great job - Please continue to post updates on your success!

Best Wishes,
-Skin Biology