I'm starting to lean towards trying the Vichy brand. They carry it at Shopper Drug Mart. It has Mexoryl and is considered "up there" in protection. Here's what Mag has to say about it. She also cleared up some confusion I had about different levels of SPF and what they mean. She is such a wealth of info when it comes to sunscreens!!!


"Hi Kathy,
SPF 30 is usually enough, but the difference between SPF 30 and 60 is not much. Some people think that SPF 60 would be DOUBLE the UVB protection of SPF 30, but it doesn't work that way.

SPF 30 blocks about 95-96% UVA, SPF 45 block about 96-97%, and anything above that just blocks neglible amounts more. So an SPF 60 may block approx. 97-98.5%. Nothing will block 100%.

So the difference between SPF 30 and 60 is neglible, yet it can make a difference in those with sensitive skin and burn easily.

Also, many people still don't apply enough sunscreen, so an SPF 30 can be reduced to an SPF 15 or even less, if applied sparingly.
So an SPF 60 can be better in strong sunlight. But you still need to apply generously.

Another reason that I recommended Vichy 60 is because I know it has the highest UVA factor that the Vichy brand offers. I think it's PPD 16+.
I am not sure what the UVA rating is for SPF 30, but it may be less.

Anthelios Extreme Fluide has PPD 28, which is excellent, maximum protection.
But PPD 16-20 is very good.
The way they formulated these sunscreens, is that the higher SPFs also have the higher UVA factors.

I usually use Anthelios SPF 40 lait (PPD 21) or Anthelios 30 Spray (PPD 16) for daily short exposures. But for summer, I like SPF 60 Extreme Fluide.
These are not availabe in Canada though.

But like I said, there is not much difference in SPF 30 or 60, so you shouldn't think that it is too much.
Just try it and see how you like it.
HTH"

The eBay seller is still cheaper with shipping costs than The Beauty Center. Even though the product is cheaper, shipping from the Beauty Center to the US is $22.75, vs $12.00 from the eBay guy. I had a bid for the 2 bottles of 60 XL Extreme and got outbid, but I see he has added a few more auctions today.

Ducky,

Oh, I thought the shipping was only $15 at beautycenter! I acutally bought mine from the ebay guy and it was $29/bottle including shipping. I didn't bid, I just used "buy it now" b/c I wanted it now!

Kathy C,

Can you please ask Mag what she thinks about SVR or Avene's mineral only formulas? The PPD is supposed to be 10 or more. I would like to avoid chemical sunscreens except on my face where I really do need it.

She's right that 16 is very good! I like Anthelios b/c it is like super duper armour for my face to get rid of my hyperpigmentation.

But, I'm unsure about her quotes for SPF. I have read in numerous places that SPF 15 blocks 94-95% UVB and SPF 30 blocks 97-98%. Not MUCH off what Mag said, but I'm confused now!

Thanks so much,
Kathleen

Ok.... firing off a message to her now!

KathyC

Thanks so much!

BTW, I've gone to the YTF forum, but it seemed hard to read and navigate. You have to click on each post individually instead of scrolling down an entire thread. I was bummed b/c it seems there is a lot of good information there!

Kathleen, here is Mag's reply to your question:

"Do you know what the ingredients are for Avene?
I just want to see what ingredients it contains to get the PPD 10 rating.
If it does have PPD 10, it would be considered good, but not very good or not excellent.
Basically, PPD 8-10 is good, 12-16, very good.
20+ excellent. These are just averages, but there could be sunscreens with PPD 17 or 18, which would be in between these averages.

If she wants to block as much UVA as possible, it's better to get a higher PPD.
But if she just wants mineral only, then it's difficult to get a high PPD. Usually a mix of chemicals and minerals is needed for higher PPDs. She can try Tinosorb, which is a unique class of organic (called chemical) and mineral (physical) sunscreen, mixed together as one agent.
Sunscreens such as Photoderm Max have this.
But so does Anthelios Extreme Fluide. Yet, they have other chemicals.

As far as SPFs, there are many sites that have varying info, but the numbers I gave are averages that are given by most professional organizations, such as the American Academy of Derm, or Cancer Society , etc.

Basically SPF 15 blocks about 92-93% UVB. You may see some sites that say up to 94%, but I think it's a bit less than that. Yet, there is not much difference between 92-94%,
SPF 30 can block up to 97.5%, and maybe 98%, it can depend on the formula. But in general, there is a limit, and anything over SPF 30 just blocks neglible amounts. Nothing blocks 100% UVB, and probably not even 99%.

If you get over 95% blockage of UVB, you are more than protected from burning...as long as you apply generously and reapply...and don't spend too long in the sun...since no sunscreen will last all day.

Another thing to realize about sunscreens, is that even though a person can reapply frequently, but stays out in the sun all day, esp. during the mid day...and has skin that burns easily or even moderately easily..they may still end up with a burn, even if it's mild.

The reason is that even if the sunscreen is blocking 97% UVB, there is still a 3% that is getting thru, and even if they continue to reapply, that 3% is compounded as the day goes on...so it can add up.

Sunscreen has a time limit, and the SPF or PPD is only effective as long as the active ingredients are still active. Once they degrade, the sunscreen must be reapplied, and this can be within 2-3 hours, depending on the formula. Sometimes even less.
So every few hours, there is about 3% UVB getting thru, which keeps adding up as the day goes on.
The same is true for the UVA that is getting thru, which is even worse in the long run.

This is why the FDA is working on correcting labels so that they don't say 'all day protection. Many people think they can stay out all day just as long as they reapply. But it depends on their skin type and how long they take to burn, and time in between reapplications, etc.
Hope this makes sense."

KathyC

Kathy,

Thank you and Mag for this informative reply! I've so busy I cannot look up the Avene ingredients right now or SVR, but I will post them this weekend and maybe she will be kind enough to look at them for me.

Kathleen

Hi Kathy C,

Here is the information I have for 2 mineral-only sunscreens that appear to have moderate (Avene) to good (SVR) PPD. I am very anxious to see what Mag thinks!

Also, for anyone else who may be reading this thread, AVENE seems to have some interesting sunscreens with a very limited amount of chemicals. Most of their formulations contain only Tinosorb, ZnO, TiO2 and octyl metho--whatever that long name is! :-) They have very good PPD and look to be good for anyone who wants good UVA protection with minimal chemical ingredients. Note also that the Tinosorbs are NOT estrogenic!


Here is the product information for the 2 mineral-only sunscreens:

SVR reformulated its whole suncare line in 2004. They added to all products Thermopherol complex 3% (Thermus thermophilus ferment 1% + Vitamin E 2%) which suppose to protect from free radicals and they changed packagings, they are bright yellow now. All products are FRAGRANCE-FREE.

NEW VERSION- SVR 50B Cream SPF 50/IPD 45/ PPD 20 - 50ml tinted, 100% physical

Comment: 100% physical filters, tinted, only one light shade, best for fair complexion, consistency not greasy, light, w/o, fragrance-free.

Active ingredients:
- - Titanium dioxide - 11%
- Zin oxide - 3%

- Thermopherol 3% (Thermus thermophilus ferment 1% + Tocopherol acetate 2%) (supposed to help with

Aqua (Water Purified), Caprylyl Dimethicone Ethoxy Glucoside, Titanium Dioxide, Isocetyl Stearate, Glycerin, Sodium Chloride, Cyclomethicone, Sodium PCA, Tocopherol Acetate, Polyglyceryl-4 Isostearate, Alumina, Methicone, Cetyl Dimethicone, Thermus Termophilus Ferment, Zinc Oxide, Quaternium-18 Hectorite, Dimethicone, Caprylylsilane, Dimethiconol, Alcohol, CI 77492 (Iron Oxides), CI 77491 (Iron Oxides), CI 77499 (Iron Oxides), Methylparaben.

OLD VERSION PPD 10 (still being sold on some websites)

SPF (UVB) 50/ (UVA) PPD 10 – 50ml - white tube with color labels, right now tube is yellow.

Aqua, Titanium dioxide - 13%, Cyclomethicone, Isocetyl stearate, Glycerin, Sodium PCA, Tocopheryl Acetate, Octyl dimethicone etoxy Glucoside, Sodium Chloride, Zinc oxide- 4%, Polyglyceryl-4 Isostearate, Cetyl dimethicone, Dimethicone, Methicone, Quaternium – 18 Hectorite, Dimethiconol, Alcohol, Trimethoxycaprylysilane, Iron Oxide, Methylparaben

I don't understand why the old version has more minerals but a LOWER PPD??? There could be a mistake in the person posting the ingredients. Maybe the old and new are mixed up??

AVENE
- Sunscreens in orange packaging with MPI -SORB: Organo-mineral UV blockers-- combination of mineral filters (titanium dioxide and zinc oxide) and micronized organic filters (Tinosorb M,S) , cinnamate. Perfumed.
In 2004, Avene reformulated all organo-mineral sunscreens. All of them contain now both Tinosorb M + Tinosorb S. Before they contained only Tinosorb M.

1- 100% mineral sunscreens with MPI (ZnO +TiO2), fragrance-free, white packaging

- Very High Protection Cream SPF 50/UVA 10 - 50ml

Active ingredients:
Titanium dioxide - 11%
Zinc oxide - 2,4 %

Thermal spring water of Avene - 34%
Glycerin - 8%
Vitamin E - 0,5%

Avene aqua, cyclomethicone , decyl oleate , titanium dioxide , glycerin , C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate , zinc oxide , sodium chloride , glyceryl stearate , PEG/PPG-18/18 dimethicone , petrolatum , butylparaben , caprylic/capric triglyceride , Citrus dulcis , disodium edta , disteardimonium hectorite, ethylparaben , CI 77492, CI 77491, iso butylparaben , methylparaben , Paraffinum liquidum , Octyldodecanol , o-cymen-5-ol , ozokerite , PEG-30 dipolyhydroxystearate , phenoxyethanol , PPG-3 myristyl ether , propylparaben , Rosmarinus officinalis , silica dimethyl silylate , sodium myristoyl glutamate , tocopheryl glucoside , trimethoxycaprylylsilane , xanthan gum .

Thanks so much for helping me with this, Kathy C!

Kathleen

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kathleen,

Here is another one from Avene that looks very good for moderate UVA protection.


Very High Protection Cream for sensitive areas SPF 50B/UVA10 - 15ml

Active ingredients:
Titanium dioxide - 15%
Zinc oxide - 7 %

Thermal spring water of Avene - 36%
Vitamin E - 5%
Vitamin F
Emollient esters- 7,5%

Caprylic/capric triglyceride, Titanium dioxide, Zinc oxyde, Bis-diglyceryl polyacyladipate-2, Hydrogenated polyisobutene, Hydrogenated vegetable oil, Paraffinum liquidum, Avene aqua,Cera alba, Silica dimethyl silylate, Benzil alcohol bht, Cethylalcoho, dimethicone, Glyceryl linoleate, Glyceryl linoleate, Glyceryl stearate, CI 77492, CI 77491, CI 77499, Methicone, Potassium ceryl phosphate, Sodium hydroxide, Tocopherylglucoside, Trimethoxycaprylylsiane.

They also have a milk formula out new for 2005, but I don't have the ingredient list for that one. The UVA protection factor is still 10.


Let me know what you think.

Kathleen

Hi again Kathleen,

I copied your message and posted it for Mag and will let you know what she has to say!

I've been looking for that Anthelios on ebay and on some other europeon sites. It's expensive! I'm wondering if it's really that much better than, say, Vichy SPF 60?

KathyC

Wow. I'd always thought I was pretty good about wearing sunscreen and keeping my skin protected, but you guys have totally made me see how "exposed" I've been I'd been clueless before about the harmful effects of the chemical sunscreens and had not even heard of PPD. Thanks for educating me! Now I need to just decide on the right product for me, which I mostly want something for everyday wear. The Avene is interesting. Does PVR stand for something, or is that the actual name?

Lastly, I currently have been using Day Cover on my face for normal everyday wear, which means the normal in/out of the car going to work in an office thing. Now, however, I'm thinking I need some extra protection, particularly against UVA. I live in the Southeastern US, and the sun can be pretty strong here. I'm just not sure how much protection I really need for normal daily wear.

Also, over the last couple of years, I've started to get a bit of brown patches, and I want to really stop that from gettng any worse. Any suggestions?

I realize I'm rambling tonight, and I'm sorry for that.

Thanks much,
Lilu

Thanks so much for writing to Mag for me. Big hugs for you!

Yes, Anthelios IS expensive!

I'm not sure how it compares to Vichy as I don't know the PPD of Vichy off hand, although I could look it up. I was recommended Anthelios XL or Bioderma Max because of my hyperpigpmentation. They block the most UVA rays. However, Mag said that anything PPD 20 or above is excellent.

For the average person without any special conditions, I would agree, so if Vichy meets that, go for it!

Even the "okay" range of 10 PPD is all I'm seeking for my arms and body (when exposed). I don't want to put any more chemicals on than I have to and the mineral only sunscreens are rarely above 10. That's why I am hoping that Mag has a good opinion about SVR!

I'm sort of excited about the Avene sunscreens, too. Even the ones with chemicals only have 1 UVB blocker plus the minerals and Tinosorb, so that may be a decent compromise and the PPD is high.

Anyhoo, I'll try to wait patiently for Mag's answer.

Kathleen

quote:

Originally posted by KathyC:
Hi again Kathleen,

I copied your message and posted it for Mag and will let you know what she has to say!

I've been looking for that Anthelios on ebay and on some other europeon sites. It's expensive! I'm wondering if it's really that much better than, say, Vichy SPF 60?

KathyC

quote:

Originally posted by Lilu:
Wow. I'd always thought I was pretty good about wearing sunscreen and keeping my skin protected, but you guys have totally made me see how "exposed" I've been I'd been clueless before about the harmful effects of the chemical sunscreens and had not even heard of PPD. Thanks for educating me! Now I need to just decide on the right product for me, which I mostly want something for everyday wear. The Avene is interesting. Does PVR stand for something, or is that the actual name?

Lastly, I currently have been using Day Cover on my face for normal everyday wear, which means the normal in/out of the car going to work in an office thing. Now, however, I'm thinking I need some extra protection, particularly against UVA. I live in the Southeastern US, and the sun can be pretty strong here. I'm just not sure how much protection I really need for normal daily wear.

Also, over the last couple of years, I've started to get a bit of brown patches, and I want to really stop that from gettng any worse. Any suggestions?

I realize I'm rambling tonight, and I'm sorry for that.

Thanks much,
Lilu

You're not rambling!

I don't want to discount Day Cover. The sunscreen thing is still a huge debate, especially for those only exposed to incidental exposure. Dr. Pickart and others here believe that moderate UV exposure is okay if you use topical and oral antioxidants to offset the damage from the UV rays. I don't necessarily subscribe to that view, but it is one theory.

If you are getting brown patches, I'd definitely invest in some good sunscreen, IMO. That is like evidence that the sun, for you, is damaging your skin.

I guess I have become obsessed because of those nasty brown patches covering my face! It is known that hyperpigmentation will not form in the absence of UVA. However, you have a few brown patches, not a case of melasma like I have,so you probably don't need to go overboard if you don't want to. Mag has said anything with a PPD of 20 or more is excellent and there are a lot of choices on the links I posted.

Avene has some nice options with only Tinosorb and 1 chemical UVB ingredient plus ZnO and TiO2. I think they offer maybe the best protection for the least amount of bad chemicals, IMHO. They may be pricey, though.

I know how you feel about feel exposed! I was so angry when I found out all this information just recently about the terrible UVA protection in the US. I was mad b/c I had gotten rid of 99.9% of my pigment problems with Retin A and HQ. But of course, I did not have a proper sunscreen and when I stopped HQ, all the pigment came back. I really think if I'd had a good sunscreen, it wouldn't have.

Now I'm sensitive to HQ and besides, I'm scared to use it after all I've read about it! So anyway, that's why I'm so into sunscreens. But even if I didn't have this problem, I would wear them to prevent aging, etc.

In fact, I found some interesting articles the other day about UVA damage and cancers. Basically it said that UVA is a silent killer and hurts the immune system. I can't remember how it all goes, but it could affect parts of your body that don't even see the sun b/c of your skin's immune defenses being down. I thought it seemed like a reason why people in countries that use the most sunscreen have seen increased cancer rates.

I think one reason is that you don't burn with UVB protection, so you stay in the sun too long and get those silent UVA rays that can damage and cause cancer, both skin and other kinds. It makes sense.

Recently, Australia has issued that sunscreens cannot claim to be broad spectrum unless they block at least 90% of the UVA rays. Previously, their sunscreens were no better than ours and that may be why the cancer rates are increasing as people feel falsely protected and stay out longer than they should(see my previous paragraph.)

Oh, sorry to go on so long!

HTH,
Kathleen

Kathleen, I find that very interesting about the UVA being a "silent killer". I wish Mag would come over to this forum! I know she would have a lot of great insight to bring to this forum on the sun and sun protection! I have tried to encourage her to post here. Oh well, I'll keep bouncing back and forth and see if I can get some more answers or at least another view point for you!

KathyC

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kathleen:
Yes, Anthelios IS expensive!
I'm not sure how it compares to Vichy as I don't know the PPD of Vichy off hand, although I could look it up./QUOTE]

Kathleen, according to Mag, Anthelios (from Europe) has a PPD of 28 which is excellent. Anything with a PPD of 16 - 20 is considered very good. Vichy SPF 60 contains Mexoryl and has a PPD of 16+. Now, the Anthelios contains Mexoryl SX and XL, and I'm not sure if the Vichy contains both. I'm going to go to the pharmacy today and check it out to be sure because it costs $22 CDN (about $17 US) and I can get it locally! It makes sense as I have no hyperpigmentation issues or any other problems, I just want the best protection I can get. Now this is coming from the gal who used to bake in the sun with oil slathered all over her body summer after summer! LOL! How things have changed

Kathy C

Kathleen, here is Mag's reply regarding Avene:

"Hi Kathy,
I also wonder why the Avene with less % of titanium and zinc has a higher PPD. Could it be that it is the other way around? The only other reason I could think of is that the titanium and zinc in the PPD 20 version is less micronized, so it would block more UVA. Yet, if it's less micronized, it would mean that it's thicker and whiter? If it's not, then I don't understand how it could have such a high PPD value, unless it's a mistake. Or unless the one with the higher PPD also has Tinosorb, which blocks alot of UVA.

Tinosorb is a unique class of sunscreen agent, but it is a chemical. There are 2: Tinosorb S - chemical name: bis-ethylhexyloxyphenol methoxyphenol triazine, and Tinosorb M- chemical name - methylene bis-benzotriazolyl tetramethylbutylphenol.

Organic filters are what are considered 'chemical'. So Tinosorb is chemical. I have read the research on it, and feel it's safe but for those who are concerned with chemicals, it's still a chemical. I don't have a problem with it though, since I still think UVA is much worse than any chemical sunscreen.
Tinosorb is unique since it both absorbs and reflects like inorganic filters like zinc and titanium (minerals).

Also, it is true that Tinosorb has not been found to have estrogenic effects, but octyl methoxycinnamate has. Most cinnamates (organic, chemical) have been found to have estrogenic effects.

Yet, this finding was based mostly on one Swiss study that was not conclusive either. It was not done on human skin, and even the researcher said that the media jumped to conclusions based on her prelimary findings. The study was not repeated large scale either.

But whether it may or may not be estrogenic, octyl methoxycinnamate (now also called octinoxate) is non-irritating and used in many childen's sunscreens.
Also, even if there may be a chance that it is estrogenic to a point, I wouldn't worry so much about that since I believe that certain foods are even more estrogenic than certain sunscreens.

But again, if a person is concerned with a sunscreen being potentially estrogenic, then I'm just pointing out that octyl methoxycinnate is one of the chemicals that was found to be associated with estrogenic effects.

Here is an article about sunscreens and the agents used in U.S. vs. Europe, and why many are not approved, and also talks about Tinosorb.
I think Avene sounds like a good sunscreen, if it does indeed have PPD 20. I think it would have this PPD if it contains Tinsorb, which is an excellent UVA blocker.

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/coverstory/83/8315sunscreens.html
"

And, Kathleen, here are Mag's comments regarding UVA being the "Silent Killer":

"Hi Kathy,
I've written about this many times before, that UVA is not only bad since it causes aging, but it also supresses the immune system and mutates DNA.
I have read many research articles about that. It is definitely a proven fact. This is why I always say it's better to get more UVA protection, with sunscreens with Mexoryl or Tinosorb, even if they contain chemicals which some people don't want to use. But UVA is far more dangerous, even in small doses, than chemicals, which may or may not be harmful to some people. Also, Mexoryl doesn't penetrate too deep neither does Tinosorb, and they have been shown to be safe.

It has only been in the recent decade that sunscreens in the U.S. have started to include more UVA protection. In the past, they barely had any or none at all.
So even if people used SPF 50 (which only refers to UVB) and didn't burn, they were still getting UVA which doesn't burn but penetrates deeper. It is now known that UVA is the main cause for skin cancer, since it mutates DNA.

Sunscreens got a bad rap before and some people don't believe they help, but this is because in the U.S. they didn't have enough UVA protection, and they still don't. So even if people use sunscreen, they can still be at risk for melanoma if the sunscreen doesn't block enough UVA. So it was assumed that sunscreen can cause cancer, but this is not accurate. Since it is known that UVA is dangerous, and if a sunscreen is not good, then a person can still get melanoma (if susceptible).
So yes, people do get a false sense of protection with a high SPF and when they don't burn. But the fact remains that they are still exposed to the dangerous UVA, since most sunscreens in the U.S. don't block enough. Even those that do, with Parsol 1789 are not stable for the most part, so when that degrades they may not burn due to the UVB filters, but they are still exposed to UVA.

Sunscreens in the U.S. don't list UVA protection, but those from Europe w/Mexoryl or Tinosorb do list it with the IPD/PPD factor. The highest PPD of about 28 is the highest protection. Anything over PPD 20 is excellent.
This rating is also used in many other countries."

quote:

Originally posted by KathyC:

Kathleen, according to Mag, Anthelios (from Europe) has a PPD of 28 which is excellent. Anything with a PPD of 16 - 20 is considered very good. Vichy SPF 60 contains Mexoryl and has a PPD of 16+. Now, the Anthelios contains Mexoryl SX and XL, and I'm not sure if the Vichy contains both. I'm going to go to the pharmacy today and check it out to be sure because it costs $22 CDN (about $17 US) and I can get it locally! It makes sense as I have no hyperpigmentation issues or any other problems, I just want the best protection I can get. Now this is coming from the gal who used to bake in the sun with oil slathered all over her body summer after summer! LOL! How things have changed

Kathy C

I think the Vichy sounds perfect for you! Have you checked Ombrelle because they seem to be recommended as good and fairly inexpensive, too, but again, I haven't looked at them that much since I was scouting for those super high PPDs for my face.

Yes, lol, how things change! I never wore sunscreen at all, although I didn't lay out, either. I also ate things that would make me faint now. I just didn't know any better.

Kathleen

quote:

Originally posted by KathyC:
Kathleen, here is Mag's reply regarding Avene:

(abbreviated!)

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/coverstory/83/8315sunscreens.html
"

Oh Kathy C,

Thanks so much for being the go between! I will try to find out more about the Avene mineral formulations, but I do not think they have Tinosorb in them, just zinc and titanium. I will try specifically to clarify why the one with less minerals have a higher PPD. BTW, their older versions only claimed a PPD of 10...so it's a bit of a mystery.

They DO have other formulas with Tinosorb, zinc and titanium plus octyl methoxycinnamate, and those have much higher PPDs that make sense based on the ingredients.
I have no problem with Tinosorb, either. I think the UV is worse than the chemcials, as well. I just need to try to avoid the estrogenic ones for my own personal health reasons.

As for octyl methoxycinnamate, I realize it's estrogenic, but I figure it's only 1 chemical, so it shouldn't be too bad overall, especially as I don't use it on my entire body or anything. Moreover, your point about foods is well noted. I undestand that octyl methoxycinnamate is a weak estrogen, meaning it would offset the stronger, bad estrongens, correct? That is supposedly the good effects of many plant estrogens--that they bind to the receptors where the "bad" estrogens would normally bind.


It's a decent compromise, IMHO. And the octyl methoxycinnamate not even absorb as much as people are led to believe. My understanding is that manufacturers want the sunscreens to stay on the skin and protect you, not be absorbed.

Based on Mag's recommendations of Tinsorb, maybe their formulas with Tinosorb, zinc, titanium and octyl methoxycinnamate would be the best overall compromise for my neck, arms and face.

Thank you for the excellent link!

Kathleen

quote:

Originally posted by KathyC:
Kathleen, I find that very interesting about the UVA being a "silent killer". I wish Mag would come over to this forum! I know she would have a lot of great insight to bring to this forum on the sun and sun protection! I have tried to encourage her to post here. Oh well, I'll keep bouncing back and forth and see if I can get some more answers or at least another view point for you!

KathyC

I'm sorry to have you as the go between. Maybe I should post on her forum myself? To save you the hassle. I found the YTF forum unweildy becaue you have to click on every single reply, it wasn't in a scroll-down format. I also couldn't find things very well!

I understand if Mag doesn't want to post here as it's hard to keep up on several forums!