Greetings Dr. Pickart:

I'm struggling to understand the relationship to skin wetting and speeding skin aging.

What I think I just figured out based upon following threads you comment on regarding HA--I'm almost in a panic because every product I use excluding yours has HA in it!

Okay--- is this a safe synthesis?

HA wets the skin barrier because it sucks up water from the skin.

When the epidermis (particularly the granulosum layer) registers the wet surface it responds by recognizing a breach in the skin barrier (wet skin lets bad things in).

So -- it kicks keratin production into high gear. It wants to send (dry) keratin to the surface to restore the integrity of the barrier.

This is a bad thing because keratinocytes (like all cells in the body) are limited in the number of times they can reproduce themselves.

When they reach that limit, they cease to exist. And as they grow closer to that limit, they slow down and produce substandard proteins.

This is the aging process.

So, when we use HA, we are speeding up the skin aging process by effectively killing off our defenses sooner rather than later.

Please help.

thanks,
FeleciaRose

This message has been edited. Last edited by: FeleciaRose,

I can't find hyaluronic acid in any of the the Skin Biology products - which ones did you mean? Maybe I'm confused.

Sorry Bagheera --- there is no HA in SB products. I wrote that every product I use EXLUDING SB products has HA in it. Sure hope Dr. P responds soon. I can feel my skin twitching!

That's what I get for reading without my glasses on! Ooops. Ha ha. I liked your outline of the aging process and HA's actions in the skin. Very interesting. I'm looking forward to Dr. P's response, too.

This is complex but here it is.

1. HA sucks water out of the air and becomes wet. If you put dry HA on a dish, in about 30 minutes you would have a puddle of water. It is a very hygroscopic material, one which attracts moisture from the atmosphere. If not protected from contact with the atmosphere (by being stored under vacuum or under a dry gas) some hygroscopic materials will eventually attract so much water that they will form solutions.

2. Then this water wets or hydrates the outer skin proteins. This weakens the proteins and loosens the protective skin barrier.

The weak skin barrier allows bacteria, viruses, and allergens to pass through the skin. Often famous young actors in their late 20s have a very spotted skin (you often see this on a large screen) from skin barrier damage from heavy use of make up and make up removers.

3. The wet proteins slow keratin production. The signal for the skin to send up new keratinocytes to the surface is a dryness in the proteins in the top of the skin. So skin is replaced slower and damage accumulates.

4. Many years ago, women used Cold Creams to keep their faces moist when they went to bed. If you have seen "I Love Lucy" or old movies, you have seem women with these white creams all over their face. But they ended up with horrible wrinkles as time went by because their skin had been keep too wet.

5. There is the idea of a limited cell life but many cell biologists doubt if this is correct. Many cells line that die in about 40 generations will live very long - such a 200 generations - as normal diploid, cancer-free cells if they are given supplemental growth factors such a fibroblast growth factor, GHK, and other hormones. No one knows how long cells can live because very long cell culture experiments are very expensive.

The body also makes stem cells - even in adults - that can keep setting up new cell lines.

quote:

Originally posted by Bagheera:
I can't find hyaluronic acid in any of the the Skin Biology products - which ones did you mean? Maybe I'm confused.

The SRCPs increase HA and other glycosaminoglycans and proteoglycans within the skin.

A heartfelt thank you Dr. Pickart! Elegant explanation. I think your tops!

FeleciaRose

This message has been edited. Last edited by: FeleciaRose,

Thanks for your interesting explanation -- It's much appreciated, Dr. P!

Dr. Pickart,

Given the hygroscopic property of haylouronic acid, especially with the presence of 100% pure hyaluronic acid in our skin or covering large enough surface area, could it actually cause us dehydration as it draws fluid out of our internal organs and cells as well as from the atmosphere since human body is made up mostly of water, even if it keeps our skin expanded and hydrated?

On the other hand, why wouldn't the excess water absorbed by hyalurnoic acid and hyaluronic acid itself escape out of skin pores and help release internal waste and regulate our temperature as when we sweat?

When our feet and fingers turn white and wrinkled from prolonged water immersion/submersion, is that also from wetting and weakening of the protein similar to what you suggested above or is it a totally different biological phenomenon, such as a temporary expansion of the stratum corneum and not the fatty dermis. The skin on our fingers and feet must be different than our neck, chest, stomach, or torsos because they don't turn white and wrinkled. What do you think would explain the differences?

Anecdotal News to Report!

Once I read Dr. P's take on HA, I began to slow down the use of my topicals containing HA. (Took me a couple of days to wean off completely because I'd become so hooked).

Anyway--It's been about 6 days now that I haven't used any HA and my skin looks better!

I noticed more glow in about 3 days.

(I've got a problem directly under my eyes I address in another post--sagging skin under my eyes appeared this morning).

Anyway---based on Dr. P's advise and my personal experience---NO MORE HA's for me!

Watch out -- HA's are ubiquitious.

best,
FeleciaRose

The hyaluronic acid is somewhat like sitting in a bathtub for many hours since stays on the skin.

As the outer skin proteins hydrate (become wet), they swell and this breaks down the tightness of the skin barrier. This can make skin look briefly better and this general idea is used to sell cosmetic as department store counters.

But these changes degrade skin health.

We all not only want skin beauty but also a healthy skin beauty. The cosmetic companies only want to sell products quickly.

I have had some experience with HA. It can appear to make a dynamic change to your face temporarily. I.E., my pore seemed invisible, and my few lines diminished because of the water retention abilities of HA. In the long term I suffered from severe acne breakouts which I am not at all prone to. Upon discontinuing use of HA, my skin immediately cleared, and the large pores and slight lines I'd had appeared worse than ever. HA is a "hat trick" to me and I also have concerns about HA's ability to be readily absorbed into the system, as too much HA has been linked to various cancers. It is my understanding that Super CP stimulates natural levels of HA production, which is healthy and without the risks of ingesting or using a topical form of HA.

Thanks intheflesh. For others who remain interested, I've completely abandoned HAs and no longer buy products containing the same. My skin continues to improve. Would never go back --even though many "experts" cotinue to promelgate its benefits.

Also, HA is the primary ingredient of dermal fillers. (ie: injectables like restylene). I follow the industry's use of such and have wondered the effects of HA injected. Recent scientific studies report they stimulate collagen synthesis. Could locate the same for reference if anyone is interested.

Dr. Pickart I am very confused. You mean all of our grandmothers that died well into their 80s and 90s that had beautiful skin from using cold cream, vaseline and crisco 'til the day they died were really hiding the secret of destroyed skin from those barrier products that they used?

Maybe your relatives had beautiful skin late in life but I have never seen a woman in her 80s or 90s that had the beautiful skin of a 17 year old.

While hyaluronic acid is normally in the skin, it is still a relatively fragile molecule. Adding extracted hyaluronic acid may not be wise since this could produce fragments of the molecule which can help cancer cells evade the immune system.

J Immunol. 2008 Sep 1;181(5):3089-98. Links
Tumor-educated tolerogenic dendritic cells induce CD3epsilon down-regulation and apoptosis of T cells through oxygen-dependent pathways.

Kuang DM, Zhao Q, Xu J, Yun JP, Wu C, Zheng L.
State Key Laboratory of Biocontrol, Sun Yat-Sen University, Guangzhou, People's Republic of China.
Defects in the CD3/TCR complex and impairment of T cell function are necessary for tumor evasion, but the underlying mechanisms are incompletely understood. We found that culture supernatants from several types of solid tumor cell lines drove human monocytes to become tolerogenic semimature dendritic cells (TDCs). Upon encountering T cells, the TDCs triggered rapid down-regulation of CD3epsilon and TCR-alpha/beta and subsequent apoptosis in autologous T cells. Consistent with these results, accumulation of immunosuppressive DCs coincided with CD3epsilon down-regulation and T cell deletion in cancer nests of human tumors. The impaired T cell function was mediated by factor(s) released by live TDCs after direct interaction with lymphocytes. Also, the TDC-induced effect on T cells was markedly reduced by blocking of NADPH oxidase but not by inhibition of arginase, inducible NO synthase (iNOS), IDO, or IFN-gamma. Moreover, we found that hyaluronan fragments constituted a common factor produced by a variety of human tumor cell lines to induce formation of TDCs. These observations indicate that tumor microenvironments, including hyaluronan fragments derived from cancer cells, educate DCs to adopt a semimature phenotype, which in turn aids tumor immune escape by causing defects in the CD3/TCR complex and deletion of T cells.

Do you work for a company that sells hyaluronic acid for cosmetic uses?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Dr. Pickart,

Thanks Dr. Pickart

While I never said that they looked 17 my question was directed at other topicals that basically trap moisture on the surface of the skin in order to achieve a more youthful appearance. Will cold cream, vaseline and crisco do as much or the same kind of damage as hyaluronic acid? Isn't HA recommended orally for joint health?
PS. I do not work for a company that makes Hyaluronic Acid. I work for a company that makes cancer drugs.

I have heard that some people use crisco after Retin-A to reduce irritation since Emu "pushes" products deeper into the skin. That is why Emu Oil -or Squalane is IDEAL when applied after CPs.

Dr. Pickart, Does crisco harm the skin barrier?

The outer skin cells get some of their oxygen from the air. Crisco would block this oxygen uptake and could harm the skin. Most bandages today allow some air the interact with the outer skin.

quote:

Originally posted by QKitty:
Thanks Dr. Pickart

While I never said that they looked 17 my question was directed at other topicals that basically trap moisture on the surface of the skin in order to achieve a more youthful appearance. Will cold cream, vaseline and crisco do as much or the same kind of damage as hyaluronic acid? Isn't HA recommended orally for joint health?
PS. I do not work for a company that makes Hyaluronic Acid. I work for a company that makes cancer drugs.

It is the dryness of the proteins in the upper layers of the skin that trigger the migration of new keratinocytes to the skin surface. If the outer proteins are damp, then this slow skin replacement and the older skin remains around much longer.

quote:

Originally posted by intheflesh:
I have had some experience with HA. It can appear to make a dynamic change to your face temporarily. I.E., my pore seemed invisible, and my few lines diminished because of the water retention abilities of HA. In the long term I suffered from severe acne breakouts which I am not at all prone to. Upon discontinuing use of HA, my skin immediately cleared, and the large pores and slight lines I'd had appeared worse than ever. HA is a "hat trick" to me and I also have concerns about HA's ability to be readily absorbed into the system, as too much HA has been linked to various cancers. It is my understanding that Super CP stimulates natural levels of HA production, which is healthy and without the risks of ingesting or using a topical form of HA.

Is Sodium Hyaluronate related to HA? Is it just as bad or is it something different