At Skin Biology, we hold that skin should be renewed using the molecules naturally on or in the skin. The natural hydroxy acids are lactic acid and salicylic acid.

Mandelic acid is an artificial acid and is patented for various skin care uses. It also is neurotoxic and can induce adverse effects on the peripheral nervous system and produce toxic peripheral neuropathy at concentrations of 0.03%. Neurophysiological Changes in Rats Subchronically Treated with Styrene or Its Metabolite, Junichi M, Megumi N, Wenyuan Z, Kazuo A, J Occup Health 2000; 42: 328–335. It is also being tested as a sperm inactivator and preservative.

If you use a 10% mandelic acid on your skin, and 1 mandelic acid molecule out of each 1,000 actually enters your skin, then your skin level is three times the level that caused nerve degeneration. The skin is filled with peripheral nerves.

Coming on the Late Night SciFi Channel - Happy Make-Up Junkies Turned in Mandelic Acid Zombies

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Dr. Pickart,

Mandelic is also in the trash, Dr. Pickart. I dropped that one a while ago.Unfortunately, I was using it for a while. Finally, my skin is repairing by staying very close to your recommendations.

I don't really do much in terms of supplementation, but use a nutrition analysis program called Nutribase. After I get all of my requirements from food, do you think that I should add anything for optimal skin improvement? Thank you.

I was going to buy this in the near future. Thanks for the heads up!

Im with you, zuzu. Dr. Pickart really seems to know what hes talking about. Ive seen very good results after just two weeks following Dr. Pickarts recommendations.

~Brett~

Great idea for a new subject for discussion! Will Skin Bio be making formal announcements as research comes in or may board members ask questions (not about specific brands but substances)?

The definition of lipophilic is with respect to it dissolving oils etc. But the result of a subststance being lipophilic is that it does enter the blood stream. The saftey of salicylic for preganancy (concern because it is an aspirin derivative)is probably due to the minute quantities that transfer into the blood. Mandelic is probably "safe" as well since there is little transfer. It is just an unknown risk as the product is so new. I don't think even Dr Pickart will claim that it is definitively harmful. Just an unknown risk. But much less so than driving a car i guess so if you are getting great results, it is probably worth it.

Also, the irritation you experienced with the lactic acid doesn't mean you can't use lactic acid. It could be the formulation, the concentration, and the pH of that particular brand of lactic acid. Lactic acid is a proven humectant that enhances skin hydration and moisturization without oil that is needed by dry skin type.

Salicylic acid has anti-inflammatory, anti-bacterial, and added exfoliating properties (lipid soluble) that AHAs do not. Salicylic acid is suitable for all skin types, unless one is allergic to aspirin.

While lactic and salicylic acids are native elements in our body, where does the functional use mandelic acid fit in?

Mandelic acid causes peripheral nerve degeneration in rats at 0.03% concentration. I cited one paper but there are many other studies with the same result. These are the type of nerves in the skin. The problem is that it may have the very same action on humans nerves.

Injections of liquid silicone into women's faces and breast were common 25 years ago. Then it all ran down the body in a few years and had to be removed surgically. At the same time, acne was treated with repeated X-ray exposures and these people are now developing cancer from the treatments

I buy my mandelic acid from skincarerx.com If it is so harmful, explain this:

http://skincarerx.org/rx_article.html

"Mandelic acid has been used in medicine for many years as a urinary antiseptic. Methenamine mandelate (Mandelamine®, Parke-Davis, Morris Plains, NJ) has the urinary antiseptic action of both methenamine and mandelic acid. In concentrations of 35g to50g/100L of urine, it inhibits Staphylococcus aureus, bacillus proteus, escherichia coli, and aerobacter aerogenes. Chemically, mandelic acid has a structure similar to that of other well-known antibiotics. It is a nontoxic substance that, after being injested orally, is excreted in the urine."

Regarding exfoliating the pores like salicylic, thus having anti-inflammatory action:

Hydroxy Acids and Beyond by Barbara Green
PMPR Cosmetic Forecast 2003-2004

"Traditional AHAs, including glycolic acid and lactic acid, are highly polar, water-soluble materials. Lipophilic AHAs also exist, and they offer benefits on oily and acne-prone skin because they can preferentially absorb into the oil rich follicles. Mandelic acid, glycolic acid with a phenyl group attached, and benzylic acid, glycolic acid with two phenyl groups attached, are two examples of AHAs with enhanced oil solubility. These agents have demonstrated anti-acne benefits and improvements in rosacea, perhaps due to absorption into the oily follicles and the resulting normalization of keratinization in this microenvironment."


KathyC

I checked your citation, "Hydroxy Acids and Beyond by Barbara Green
PMPR Cosmetic Forecast 2003-2004". I read this article when DebbieNIR first quoted it introducing Mandelic acid, and then I addressed my opinion about her sources after several on-going one-sided discussion about the topic. It was indeed a recycled material from the ghost from the past.

This recycled article from piercemattie.com is not a scientific paper but a promotional article using someone's professional credentials to promote cosmetics and/or new cosmetic ingredients from a public relations firm. It's not unlike when investment brokerage firms try to promote market interests for an IPO, a movie maker creates controversy to sell movie tickets, or when someone's credential or professional opinion is used in court to make a case

I also analyzed the deceptive study results for NuCèlle’s Mandelic Marine Complex at the skincarerx link you provided.

If you read them closely, did you notice under "Results" and the subheading for "Fine wrinkles and lines" there are no relevant numerical measurements for claimed improvement of fine lines but several qualitative claims about less irritation and postinflammatory hyperpigmentation. How are they relevant to improvement of lines? These subheadings are clear subliminal advertisements. This is not a credible study (but maybe a 3-yr. "case study" without any negtaive controls). I didn't bother to read the rest.

This is also the same study I commented in another thread. Here is a repost of my analysis about the two studies done on NuCèlle’s Mandelic Marine Complex Four Step Skin Conditioning Regimen, but both are sponsored by the manufacturer of the NuCèlle Mandelic Marine Complex - NuCèlle, Inc.

1.
There was one open mandelic acid products study in 1999. See published preliminary results on Mandelic Acid, “Cosmetic Dermatology, June 1999, Mark B. Taylor, M.D., http://www.nucelle.com/article.pdf. The clinical study was open and not a double-blind and sponsored by the maker of NuCèlle Mandelic Marine Complex. Since this trial was done without a negative control and also was based only on visual evaluation and photographic documentation without additional histological and instrumental measurements from a corneometer (hydration measure), cutometer (skin firmness and dispensability), mexameter (melanin index), photo densitometry (melanin density), pixel counts of video images (pigmentation), and etc., the concluding findings were not of high quality objective assessments. However, instrumentation was employed to perform objective measurements of skin surface sebum level, pH, moisture content, and barrier function.

2.
In the same year, California Skin Research Institute (CSRI) conducted an independent study of the Mandelic Marine Complex formulations commissioned again by NuCèlle, Inc. Again, the CSRI study is not a study specifically on mandelic acid but on the Mandelic Marine products from NuCèlle, Inc [which contains marine ingredients and other antioxidants].

Therefore it is now as then, there are no placebo controlled trials done on mandelic acid and malic acid.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Skin Biology,

I think that everyone should use what works best for them, including mandelic acid. I doubt that anything is 100% safe to use on the skin, SRCP's included.
Personally, Skin Biology's products are the only ones that I have found to actually improve my skin, so I tend to trust Dr. Pickart's opinions. Sometimes you just have to have faith.
None of us are experts here, so theres no point in arguing. We are all laymen, with varied opinions, and varied experiences. A lot of what science is, is educated guesses...trial and error. As Dr. Pickart pointed out, some procedures and products that were considered safe in the past are now known to be dangerous. Im sure the same holds true for products and procedures that were deemed unsafe, eventually being proven harmless. Like I said, trial and error.
I, for one, respect both JW's and KathyC's opinions, and wish that they would respect each others opinions also. I also have a lot of respect for Dr. Pickart's opinions. None of these products is 100% guaranteed, and they never will be, regardless of the amount of research put into them.

There are numerous studies on toxic actions of mandelic acid. Styrene is a common chemical used in many manufacturing processes (like making the plastic polystyrene) and it is thought that the neurotoxic actions of styrene accumulation in the human body are due its breakdown into mandelic acid and the subsequent accumulation of manelic acid in the body.

I just cited one toxicity study. Such studies are usually done in rats since humans are too expensive.

Mandelic acid kills rats at 0.4% in their bodies and causes peripheral nerve degeneration at 0.03%.

Skin is filled with peripheral nerves.

Industrial workers using styrene (for plastics) often have nerve disorders. Styrene is converted into mandelic acid in the body and it is felt that the mandelic causes the nerve damage.

Dear Clients and Visitors:

Many did not understand the correlation of this study.

The very important thing to keep in mind, and the reason why Dr. Pickart thought it so neccessary to post this information is because of the fact that the standard study of toxicology for humans is a study of rats/mice.

The study was of "Changes in Rats Subchronically Treated with Styrene or Its Metabolite". High levels of styrene convert into mandelic acid and the mandelic accumulating in the body can cause degeneration of peripheral nerves in rats at only 0.03% (a very small percentage).

Most hydroxy acids act pretty much the same. And although mandelic acid for cosmetic use is applied topically the study shows that at a very small percentage it caused problems; why use something that the body has not been successfully exposed to over a long period of time? Although the second-generation of SRCPs may not have all of the studies we would like to have on them (we're working on it though ), they are soundly based on compounds naturally found in human skin and that have been proven to be compounds our skin can handle and use to slow down or reverse the effects of aging.

At times, Skin Biology has "ok'd" or even recommended other products not sold by us (i.e. DMAE) - But you have our assurance that we will never recommend something that we just don't believe would be a good idea for your precious skin.

Of course, each person will make their own personal choice on what they decide to put on their skin. Our information we provide just encourages all to do so in an informed manner.

Best wishes to all,
-Skin Biology

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Skin Biology,

The thing to keep in mind is what will using higher concentrations (i.e. 10%) of mandelic do on the skin where the peripheral nerves lie.

It is very possible that a concentration of .03% could penetrate into the skin especially around the hair follicles. The question is if it damages peripheral nerves of the skin.

We post these issues, not to start debates or to discredit other companies, but because we care about our clients and their skin.

Best Wishes,
-Skin Bio Team

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Skin Biology,

quote:

Originally posted by Dave:
I wonder how someone would do if that person injected an entire bottle of CP Serum into their bloodstream every day?

Actually Dr. Pickart started out with injections of copper-peptides in his experiments and this is what led to his discoveries of how it helps with not only wound healing, but tissue repair, intestinal healing, stomach healing, bone repair and antioxidant protection.

It is quite safe at even very high levels. Other groups around the world are doing further study on this right now.

-Skin Biology

Safety studies in humans and animals never observed a rise in blood copper with SRCPs applied to either healthy or wounded skin. Less than 0.1% of applied SRCPs penetrates the skin based on human cadaver skin studies.

Skin bio,

There is some confusion about what the .03% concentraion means. If you read the study it doesnt seem to me to refer to the concentraion of the fluid injected, but rather the amount in relation to the rats body weight. Also it does look from the other study that someone posted that salicylic is even worse. It would be helpful if you could clear this up.

Mandelic acid - It is 0.03% concentration in the rats by weight. The area is now being well studied because industrial workers exposed to styrene (used to make plastics) often develop peripheral nerve degeneration (these are the skin's nerves). It is thought that this is due to the styrene being converted into mandelic acid and the mandelic build up causes the problem.

If you use a 10% mandelic acid and one molecule in 1,000 gets into your skin, you are at three times the rat damage level.

Salicylic acid - Most primates eat about 97% plant foods and 3% meat. The plants have very high levels of salicylic acid and our ancestors have has it smeared all over their skin and eaten this molecule for a few hundred million years. People also can take high levels of other salicylates such as aspirin for their lifetime without ill effects.

So on any analysis, salicylic is safer.

What would the symptoms be of peripheral nerve damage?