I a not sure if I want advice, or just to report this for others' interest...

I have been using CP Serum for nearly two years. I started with very light application, and these days use a more normal amount but only once every third day (every day is too irritating and seems to encourage scarring due to excessively rapid healing), plus Exfol once every third day.

My facial skin in general is definitely better in terms of thickness and resilience - great; it is slightly worse in terms of superficial crepiness or 'dry' wrinkling.

However, my under-eye area is MUCH worse. For someone who was previously judged 12 years younger than reality, my eyes have aged more in the last 1.5 years than in the last 12 years! This is no exaggeration, and extremely depressing.

There is much talk on this forum about "persisting". Ater all this time I can't decide whether (even more) persistence is required ... or whether that would just be the same foolish human optimism which causes 80% of gamblers to eventually gamble themselves to total financial ruin. (i.e. Throwing good money/skin after bad. Should I give up while the going is not yet dreadful?)

When I inquired with Dr Pickart he wondered whether I might need a stronger CP. I increased CP serum and squalane to once a day. The result after 5 weeks? WORSE, horrible looseness and crumpling under my eyes. (Never any irritation.)

I could certainly not be accused of not building up slowly enough. Should I conclude that CP is damaging to my eye area?? Is there any realistic hope of healing damage created by the actions of a 'remodelling' product? (How?)

Thanks.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Skin Biology,

Delisay, I'm sorry to hear about your experiences. I hope you do find a solution.

Sincerely,

I would love to hear what Dr. Pickart has to say about your dilemna, Delisay. Sorry CPs have been a bad experience for you thus far. I hope Dr. Pickart has some answers for you.

Kathy

Delisay,

Are you moisturizing enough? I don't use copper peptide eye creams, but I do use various SRCPs under my eyes. I also moisturize these areas with BHOs and vitamin E oil constantly, especially before going to bed, and I have very little lines.

Thanks JW.

Pardon my relative ignorance ...
1. I thought "SRCP"s ARE copper peptides. Please explain.
2. What are BHOs please?
3.a) What kind of vitamin E oil do you use, and b) What is the base oil it's in?
4. How old are you?

I'll stop before I think of more questions... Thank you!

Dear Delisay,

I will hit the big 40 in August. Depending on my skin condition and excluding my spot treatment for hyperpigmentation, I adjust my skincare regimen and have been on various regimens of Exfol/SRCPs/BHOs and JASON vitamin E oil (only off 1 week briefly here and there to use Proactive benzoyl peroxide) for about four months, and my skin tone and texture is healthy, smooth, and glowing.

I started the SB products on a twice-a-day regimen (Cleanse-Exfol-CP Serum-BHOs), but after about five weeks, I had to adjust my routine. I have been using SRCPs (of all strengths) for four months, and currently, I don't exfoliate as a separate step regularly (using Exfol only) and only on a needed basis.

I haven't used SB's eye creams, but I have used all SB's copper peptides under my eyes, including the ones that are stronger than CP Serum.

BHOs stands for biological healing oils. Skin Biology sells three: squalane, squalane with retinol, and emu oil-S for skin. I moisturize with all three. I alternate and apply them after copper peptides. However, I moisturize with vitamin E oil daily.

I use JASON vitamin E beauty oils (both 14,000 and 32,000 I.U). Certified organic. The 14,000 IU is perfect for the face. The 32,000 I.U. is even more gooey but perfect for my legs, and it can be thinned out with pre-wetted your hand for more even application.

Ingredients: Tocopheryl Acetate (vitamin E), Helianthus Annuus (sunflower) Seed Oil, and/or Carthamus Tinctorius (Safflower) Oil, Oryza Sativa (Rice) Bran Oil, Persea Gratissima (Avocado) Oil, Essential Oil Blend.

Thanks JW, you're a gem.

(Interestingly, I read that the Tocopheryl Acetate form of vitamin E has no biological activity in the skin. Either that's incorrect, or it's all the other goodies that are helping your skin.)

You have just made me very happy, Delisay. Thank you.

Discoveries often happen by accident. Someone got it for me to treat sunburn, and it was the only oil I had on hand when I started using SRCPs. Yes, something or combination of things are working for my skin.

May I trouble you for a reference on topical tocopheryl acetate? I read topical vitamin E is a proven antioxidant and offers UV protection. I will have to dig out and organize my sources. Dr. Pickart also supports the topical use of a mixed form of vitamin E.

Vit E blurbs...

"...vitamin E should be in its free alcohol form, and not in the blocked acetate form. Manufacturers make alpha tocopherol acetate to increase the stability of alpha tocopherol. However, by doing this they have essentially blocked the active antioxidant site on alpha tocopherol. Therefore, it is disturbing that alpha tocopherol acetate is the form of vitamin E used in most commercial skin lotions and creams, while the active mix of alpha, beta, gamma and delta tocopherols is not being utilized.

Study done at the Arizona Cancer Center: While topically applied alpha tocopherol acetate (Tocopheryl Acetate) was significantly absorbed into the skin, there was no evidence of its conversion to the unesterified form (i.e. active free alpha tocopherol). There was no evidence of systemic availability... In another study, researchers found that topical application of alpha tocopherol acetate or succinate did not prevent UVB irradiation-induced skin cancer in hairless mice..."

There's quite a lot of info about, but whether it's marketing/competitive 'positioning' or accurate meaningful info is the usual struggle for us to figure out ourselves. Good luck!

Dear Delisay:

We too are very sad to hear of your experience.

If you take a look at the attached pict though you will see that depending on how much damage exists (or even if there isn't that much "damage"), depending on how an individual's own unique skin reacts to these strong skin remodeling agents of the SRCPs, will dictate how this "transition period" will go for the person and even whether or not they can use certain products around the eyes.

What we are now recommending if the skin becomes loose/puffy or if wrinkles seem to increase is to: REST THE SKIN by using only a biological oil such as Emu Oil-S or Squalane and a light DMAE serum (the DMAE helps to tighten the area and usually is based in a biological oil as well). A light DMAE serum or dilute Regular CP with water and use every other day seems to help.

From time to time it is a good idea to rest the skin with just a biological oil (i.e. Emu Oil-S or Squalane), or a DMAE serum, and then slowly return to use of the SRCP product.

We have never had anyone report a lasting problem and we are here to help you successfully get through this - Please contact us directly and many times that can help to quickly start to resolve what is happening.

So just to recap: Many of our clients who have experienced temporary periods of increased crepiness, saggy skin, or wrinkles have used a light DMAE serum or dilute Regular CP with water and use every other day. From time to time it is a good idea to rest the skin with a biological oil (i.e. Emu Oil-S for Skin), or a DMAE serum, and then slowly return to use of the SRCP product.

(What we would suggest for you personally is to give the SRCPs a rest and wait until your skin, especially through the use of biological oils, returns to its normal state).

Best Wishes!
-Skin Bio Team

Attached picture is found at:
http://www.skinbio.com/cpnighteyes.html

aroundeyes.jpg (151 KB, 72 downloads) Having Problems Around the Eye Area?

For those interested in why this "transition period" in skin remodeling takes place...

See Tip#6 on our Tips for Using SRCPs page at:
http://www.skinbio.com/usingsrcps.html

The only effective and real skin remodeling takes place when damage is removed using the skin's natural method of doing this. Many times a temporary "loosening" or a bringing to the fore other types of damage may occur before this is successfully removed.

It is not the easiest thing to go through if your skin has a particular tendency to respond this way with the products, or if you have a great deal of damaged skin - However, at least it is not a cosmetic masking of the problem and it can lead to some amazing results.

Through the course of time (and with the help of etheticians and our dear clients ) we've come across a number of helpful tips that we'd be glad to share with you if this is currently happening to your skin...There may be ways of getting through this without the skin looking too shocking.

The first step is: Starting Very Slowly.

Next: Periodically rest the skin from SRCPs. Yes, take breaks from the product...waiting for your skin to kind of "catch up". This may help this "transition period" go a little easier for you.

And there is much more priceless information that can be learned right on this chat forum.

We sincerely hope this helps you all.
-Skin Bio Team

Dear Skin Biology,

Does this mean that you will be selling DMAE in the near future? I read that DMAE has a cosmetic tightening effect, but does it have any dermal health benefits or anti-oxidant effects for regular use in a skin care regimen?

Dear JW:

Yes DMAE is just for a cosmetic tightening effect...But it seems that many who have had the experience of the skin becoming temporarily loose have used this with good results while resting from the SRCPs then come back to SRCP use later on and this seems to have worked for many.

See: http://healthyskin.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8890018252/m/7940040733

Dr. Pickart has looked at its use and doesn't see a problem with using a DMAE product. As it stands right now, we're not thinking about carrying it (there are patents on it).

But you may want to search the forum under DMAE and see what others have said about it.

-Skin Bio Team

Hi again Delisay, Hopefully this will encourage you somewhat. I have not been using CPs as long as you (14 months for me) but I have just finally found a balance that is working for me. I have had a horrible time with my eye area as well, and similar to the results you have had, except I can use Super CP Serum anywhere on my face except my eyelids and neck without irritation. I had basically quit using CPs around my eyes and neck until about 2 months ago when I reintroduced them again with a different approach. I have discovered that the CP Night Eyes Premier and I are simply never going to get along so I ditched it. What I did (after resting my eyelids and neck area for a period of time) is start slowly, a couple of drops of regular CP serum mixed with about 6 drops of water. I would do this only two or three times a week. For me, being the impatient type, it was not easy for me not to "up" it, but I persevered until I was sure there was no irritation. Then I would add a day, add a drop, delete a bit of water, all very gradually. Now I am at the point of diluting 1/2 CPs and 1/2 water once a day, every day. No irritation. In fact, my eyelids are starting starting to lift considerably, almost looking like I had an upper bleph! I expect I will be able to use regular CP serum on these sensitive areas full strength by the August! Skin Biology are right. Everyone reacts differently, some are more sensitive than others. It sounds like you and I are VERY sensitive and I wish you luck in finding the right balance for you.

KathyC

P.S. I should add that I have added DMAE serum to my eye area routine as well as retinoic acid, which may or may not have contributed to my results.

Thanks Kathy. That is very helpful. (I think your 'PS' is at least as important as the rest of it!)

Need to get my paws (pores?) on some good DMAE, without huge postage from the US - but I can't find any in Australia. Doesn't seem to be available here.

In what form is the retinoic acid you are using?...and what is your protocol?

Best wishes
Delisay

Hi again Delisay,

I buy Reviva DMAE. Here are two links (I wouldn't recommend the Vitacost link at this time for international orders until they get their shipping straightened around or you'll NEVER get it!):

http://www.vitacost.com/store/products/productdescription.cfm?SKUNumber=087992113857&searchby=PN&SearchText=Reviva%20DMAE

http://www.lifesvigor.com/prod/19254/index.htm

I use Renova .05% which is a cream based form of tretinoin (retinoic acid). I have used it since December of 2004 and will continue to use it for one year consistently, then intend to use it only a couple of nights a week for maintenance. In most cases, retinoic acid can be used with copper peptides without any problems. In Canada an RX is required for Renova. Retin-A is another form but I use renova because my skin is on the dry side. Personally, I love the stuff!

I have recently added MaMa lotion to my routine as well but do not put it on my eyelids, so it is irrelevant to my eye progress, however, I think it has given my skin a boost overall. It is a gel-lotion 20% AHA forumlation of 10% mandelic acid and 10% malic acid with a 2.5 pH. It is non-irritating on my sensitive skin which is very refreshing!

Here is my basic routine:

AM
Cleanse
MaMa Lotion (wait at least 1/2 hour)
Regular CP Serum diluted 1/2 and 1/2 on eyelids and neck
Super SP Serum on rest of face
Wait 5-10 minutes for the serum to penetrate
DMAE Serum (wait about 10 minutes)
Exfol cream (wait 30 minutes)*
Squalane
Sunscreen

*I don't use Exfol every day because I am afraid of over exfoliating (the MaMa and the Renova turn cells over) and because of the time factor, having to wait an extra 30 minutes).

PM
Cleanse
Super CP Serum on face (except eyelids and neck)
Renova
Emu Oil

I hope you can find the right products and balance for your skin. Remember, everyone is different and the best advice I could give would be what Skin Biology said, go slow with the CPs! I think the CPs are the backbone of my skin care regimen. It just took me awhile to adjust!

Kathy

Hi Delisay
I am in Australia too. I purchased 2 bottles Reviva Serum off a US ebay seller and with post it was roughly $50AU and about 7/8 days.

I have posted in another thread I have been using it about a month with no results so far, not sure I would waste my money again. I will continue until I have used my second bottle.

Also on the CP'S, I am getting a bit frustrated also. I have been using CP Serum undiluted religiously for 6 months and although I seem to have some good results initially, I am now not sure if this was more to do with the glycolic I use.

I have seen no major improvement with lines or lifting in the last 4/5 months.

I use both these products only PM and am wondering if stepping up to AM/PM might get more results.

I'm also a devotee of Rosehip oil and use this in preference to Emu or squalene, the thought has crossed my mind that maybe the Vit C in this oil or something else is reacting to the CP.

Maybe skinbio will answer this for me if they see it.

Hi Lady Latte,

I'm sorry to hear you haven't seen great effects yet from CPs. I do, however, think you are right in being suspicious of the vit C in your rosehip oil. Prior to starting my use of CPs, I used vit C serum on my face twice a day...I loved it (and still do); however, I had heard that the two can't be used together, as the copper ion reacts with and inactivates the vit C. This may not seem like a big deal if you are not interested in the vit C benefits; however, it is still important not to mix the two. A product from the inactivation reaction is the hydroxyl radical, which is one of, if not the worst free radical and causes a lot of damage to proteins and DNA!

"DNA- and protein-scission activities of ascorbate in the presence of copper ion and a copper-peptide complex."
J Biochem (Tokyo), 1983 Oct, 94:4, 1259-67

Because of this, I try to make sure the additional creams and serums I use with the CPs don't contain ascorbate (vit. C) or any of its derivatives. I do, however, still like to use my vit. C serum, only I alternate days, leaving at least 12 hours between applications (thanks, KathyC). Maybe you can find rosehip oil without vit. c?

Hope this helps!
-Abby

p.s. can you tell me more about rosehip oil...what has it done for your skin?

Abbey, that was an incredibly valuable insight. Thanks so much for posting the results of your scientific sleuthing...!

I wonder whether the implications are at all significant for the minor amounts of Vit C which are naturally present in the skin?

Delisay

Sorry, I mean AbbY ... (not church / rectory / priory etc.)